Eiri, are you actually pro-life?

That's your opinion. Who knows why women who regret their abortions say the things they do> Many are brainwashed by pro-life zealots.

Many women regret getting sterilized, do you think they didn't know what they were doing?

This is from an early abortion:

http://www.abortion.org.au/abortionpictures.htm

This is from that same link. Actual size, from a 7 week pregnancy.

EiriForLife wrote:

Do women have the opportunity to see videos of the procedure they are about to undergo? They shouldn't be forced to watch, but videos of every procedure known to man are available... except abortion. You have NO idea how hard it is to find a video of a proper abortion being performed before or at 12 weeks. I can find gastric bypass, plastic surgery... all sorts of ELECTIVE procedures. But not abortion. Why do you think that is? I think it's unfair: I can see what breast implantation looks like if I WANT to, but I can't see what an abortion looks like. The video should be available.

Secondly, a detailed packet (not just a 3-page pamphlet briefly touching on each trimester) should be provided discussing the capabilities of the unborn at the stage of pregnancy the woman is in, during the week she will abort (if different), and what it would be capable of just one week later. Sometimes all a woman needs to know is that her child is going to have a heartbeat to stop her from aborting. If she were to learn that knowledge later, she could regret that abortion.

You sound like a bully.

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

but before this random, arbitrary 12week time line you do not want abortions legal?

that means that YOU want to tell women what risks they can take and thenyou want to define what risks are okay or not okay.

like, a woman risking abuse from her partner that's not okay because it's not medical, or a woman risking everything she's worked for in life that's not okaytoo, because it's not medical. Or a womanrisking her mental sanity that's not okay, too? See?

12 weeks is not random. It is firstly, the end period for the most common abortions performed - they drop extremely in amount past 12 weeks - and secondly, it is the earliest that the unborn is theorized to feel pain.

and the rest of thepost?

Can you prove being pregnant would "risk everything a woman has worked for in life"? There are risks for abortion too. Abortion could risk everything a woman has worked for too. PLUS a child dies, so I personally feel the risks of a normal pregnancy and the risks of a normal abortion cancel each other out. Women are not normally turned into debilitated whales when they are pregnant. IF the side effects are so severe she can't work, then that would be grounds for an abortion.

As for the abuse situation, that would fit into the "etc" cases of exceptions. There will ALWAYS be exceptions, and I am NOT going to discuss them. So stop trying.

can you prove it wouldn't? Why do you get higher authority?
why can't you answer why you get higher authority thanthe pregnant woman?

i didn't know abuse would fit intoyour 'excpetion' category, you've never said anything like that before-excuse me for bringing it up.

EiriForLife wrote:

futureshock wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Because I want informed consent and counseling for the other 10%, and I want the legal limit for elective abortions lowered to 12 weeks.

There is already informed consent for every single medical procedure performed in the U.S., and there is counseling before every abortion, regardless of trimester.

Then why do women constantly tell their counselors and therapists "I had no idea what I was killing, I didn't know it was a baby". Why do women regret their abortions if they "know everything" about the procedure? For God's sake, I still hear the LIE that "The embryo is just a blob of cells!!!" There is a body with limbs by 4 weeks, and by 6 weeks it's definitely NOT a blob.

Do women have the opportunity to see videos of the procedure they are about to undergo? They shouldn't be forced to watch, but videos of every procedure known to man are available... except abortion. You have NO idea how hard it is to find a video of a proper abortion being performed before or at 12 weeks. I can find gastric bypass, plastic surgery... all sorts of ELECTIVE procedures. But not abortion. Why do you think that is? I think it's unfair: I can see what breast implantation looks like if I WANT to, but I can't see what an abortion looks like. The video should be available.

Secondly, a detailed packet (not just a 3-page pamphlet briefly touching on each trimester) should be provided discussing the capabilities of the unborn at the stage of pregnancy the woman is in, during the week she will abort (if different), and what it would be capable of just one week later. Sometimes all a woman needs to know is that her child is going to have a heartbeat to stop her from aborting. If she were to learn that knowledge later, she could regret that abortion.

Basically, I don't think the counseling provided is consistent across the nation OR adequet.

I have a great idea. why don't you contact a private clinic and tell them you'd like to set up an appointment and see what you have to do and what they give you?

or read this:

This Common Secret: My Journey as an Abortion Doctor

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

but before this random, arbitrary 12week time line you do not want abortions legal?

that means that YOU want to tell women what risks they can take and thenyou want to define what risks are okay or not okay.

like, a woman risking abuse from her partner that's not okay because it's not medical, or a woman risking everything she's worked for in life that's not okaytoo, because it's not medical. Or a womanrisking her mental sanity that's not okay, too? See?

12 weeks is not random. It is firstly, the end period for the most common abortions performed - they drop extremely in amount past 12 weeks - and secondly, it is the earliest that the unborn is theorized to feel pain.

and the rest of thepost?

Can you prove being pregnant would "risk everything a woman has worked for in life"? There are risks for abortion too. Abortion could risk everything a woman has worked for too. PLUS a child dies, so I personally feel the risks of a normal pregnancy and the risks of a normal abortion cancel each other out. Women are not normally turned into debilitated whales when they are pregnant. IF the side effects are so severe she can't work, then that would be grounds for an abortion.

As for the abuse situation, that would fit into the "etc" cases of exceptions. There will ALWAYS be exceptions, and I am NOT going to discuss them. So stop trying.

can you prove it wouldn't? Why do you get higher authority?
why can't you answer why you get higher authority thanthe pregnant woman?

i didn't know abuse would fit intoyour 'excpetion' category, you've never said anything like that before-excuse me for bringing it up.

My exceptions are based on common sense.

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

but before this random, arbitrary 12week time line you do not want abortions legal?

that means that YOU want to tell women what risks they can take and thenyou want to define what risks are okay or not okay.

like, a woman risking abuse from her partner that's not okay because it's not medical, or a woman risking everything she's worked for in life that's not okaytoo, because it's not medical. Or a womanrisking her mental sanity that's not okay, too? See?

12 weeks is not random. It is firstly, the end period for the most common abortions performed - they drop extremely in amount past 12 weeks - and secondly, it is the earliest that the unborn is theorized to feel pain.

and the rest of thepost?

Can you prove being pregnant would "risk everything a woman has worked for in life"? There are risks for abortion too. Abortion could risk everything a woman has worked for too. PLUS a child dies, so I personally feel the risks of a normal pregnancy and the risks of a normal abortion cancel each other out. Women are not normally turned into debilitated whales when they are pregnant. IF the side effects are so severe she can't work, then that would be grounds for an abortion.

As for the abuse situation, that would fit into the "etc" cases of exceptions. There will ALWAYS be exceptions, and I am NOT going to discuss them. So stop trying.

can you prove it wouldn't? Why do you get higher authority?
why can't you answer why you get higher authority thanthe pregnant woman?

i didn't know abuse would fit intoyour 'excpetion' category, you've never said anything like that before-excuse me for bringing it up.

My exceptions are based on common sense.

but not your descriptions of abortion procedures because you haven't really looked into it. why not call the local clinic and find out what you have to do and what you need togo through to get an abortion?

i notice you aren't answering all the questions just the ones that are easy.

I'm sorry, what? All of the research I did included holding the cervix in place, stretching of the cervix, insertion of extraction devices, and removal of the unborn. That's exactly what the video contained. It was not a vacuum aspiration abortion, it used the scraping devices. To my knowledge from pro-choicers, this procedure is common.

I'm also only answering the questions that are relevant and that I haven't already answered before.

EiriForLife wrote:

I'm sorry, what? All of the research I did included holding the cervix in place, stretching of the cervix, insertion of extraction devices, and removal of the unborn. That's exactly what the video contained. It was not a vacuum aspiration abortion, it used the scraping devices. To my knowledge from pro-choicers, this procedure is common.

I'm also only answering the questions that are relevant and that I haven't already answered before.

Holy crap haven't you ever seen a video of a woman screaming in agony giving birth??? That is the ONLY OTHER CHOICE a woman has. It's not like a woman can choose to get an abortion or nothing.

This video obsession is just insane. You are comparing a 5 minute procedure which you can SLEEP THROUGH, so it is PAINLESS, with a procedure that causes the worst pain most humans will ever endure.

futureshock wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

I'm sorry, what? All of the research I did included holding the cervix in place, stretching of the cervix, insertion of extraction devices, and removal of the unborn. That's exactly what the video contained. It was not a vacuum aspiration abortion, it used the scraping devices. To my knowledge from pro-choicers, this procedure is common.

I'm also only answering the questions that are relevant and that I haven't already answered before.

Holy crap haven't you ever seen a video of a woman screaming in agony giving birth??? That is the ONLY OTHER CHOICE a woman has. It's not like a woman can choose to get an abortion or nothing.

This video obsession is just insane. You are comparing a 5 minute procedure which you can SLEEP THROUGH, so it is PAINLESS, with a procedure that causes the worst pain most humans will ever endure.

Birth can be painful (doesn't have to be) - But I personally feel very strongly that it is a better choice than KILLING another human being. And I do mean a human being, not a zygote. Post 8 weeks, all organs in place. A multicellular organism.

An 8 minute procedure that slaughters another human being. A student I will never see. The loss of human life is shocking to me.

So what's better... 8 minutes, and an entire lifetime that never occurs...
Or hours of labor and a human who gets to live their entire life?

EiriForLife wrote:

futureshock wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

I'm sorry, what? All of the research I did included holding the cervix in place, stretching of the cervix, insertion of extraction devices, and removal of the unborn. That's exactly what the video contained. It was not a vacuum aspiration abortion, it used the scraping devices. To my knowledge from pro-choicers, this procedure is common.

I'm also only answering the questions that are relevant and that I haven't already answered before.

Holy crap haven't you ever seen a video of a woman screaming in agony giving birth??? That is the ONLY OTHER CHOICE a woman has. It's not like a woman can choose to get an abortion or nothing.

This video obsession is just insane. You are comparing a 5 minute procedure which you can SLEEP THROUGH, so it is PAINLESS, with a procedure that causes the worst pain most humans will ever endure.

Birth can be painful (doesn't have to be)

I think you need an education on this subject. I'd love to hear proof of a painless birth.

Quote :

- But I personally feel very strongly that it is a better choice than KILLING another human being. And I do mean a human being, not a zygote. Post 8 weeks, all organs in place. A multicellular organism.

An 8 minute procedure that slaughters another human being. A student I will never see. The loss of human life is shocking to me.

So what's better... 8 minutes, and an entire lifetime that never occurs...
Or hours of labor and a human who gets to live their entire life?

That's not what we were discussing, and you know it. We were talking about your objection to abortion being based on a video.

also,

Every time a couple uses birth control a child is stopped from existing. Abortion in the first trimester does the same thing, but both of those situations are ok, right?

futureshock wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Birth can be painful (doesn't have to be)

I think you need an education on this subject. I'd love to hear proof of a painless birth.

For real, this I have to hear.

First pregnancy I had an epidural and pain medication. I was still in pain during labor. In fact I had to have a nurse push hard on the top of my stomach to help push my son out.

Second labor. Contractions borderline but got an epidural because I know labor hurts. Goes what even with epidural I was still in pain. In fact I got 2nd degree tears going up instead of down. Awful pain.

Third pregnancy. Got an epidural and was still in pain.

Fourth same as the third. Epidural and still in pain.

Yeah I'd like to know about this pain free birth.

And not just pain, severe pain.
I had every pain relief remedy medically possible, and
I was still in unbearable agony.

Not everyone is in pain during labor. It is subjective anyways and irrelevant IMO.

EiriForLife wrote:

I'm sorry, what? All of the research I did included holding the cervix in place, stretching of the cervix, insertion of extraction devices, and removal of the unborn. That's exactly what the video contained. It was not a vacuum aspiration abortion, it used the scraping devices. To my knowledge from pro-choicers, this procedure is common.

I'm also only answering the questions that are relevant and that I haven't already answered before.

Why not call the local clinic and see what you have to do to get an abortion and see what information they give you?

i went and looked at prolife america where erie posts (because I don't have enough to do lol) and she posted this:

"The review articles largely concluded that the most frequently reported emotions felt by women immediately following an abortion are relief and/or happiness, experienced by about 75% of women (one article evaluated only negative effects). Feelings of regret, anxiety, guilt, depression, and other negative emotions are reported by about 5 to 30% of women. These feelings are usually mild and fade rapidly, within a few weeks. Months or years after an abortion, the majority of women do not regret their decision. In fact, for many women, abortion appears to be a positive experience that improves their self-esteem, provides inner strength, and motivates them to refocus their lives in a meaningful way."

thank you EiriForLife!

futureshock wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

futureshock wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

I'm sorry, what? All of the research I did included holding the cervix in place, stretching of the cervix, insertion of extraction devices, and removal of the unborn. That's exactly what the video contained. It was not a vacuum aspiration abortion, it used the scraping devices. To my knowledge from pro-choicers, this procedure is common.

I'm also only answering the questions that are relevant and that I haven't already answered before.

Holy crap haven't you ever seen a video of a woman screaming in agony giving birth??? That is the ONLY OTHER CHOICE a woman has. It's not like a woman can choose to get an abortion or nothing.

This video obsession is just insane. You are comparing a 5 minute procedure which you can SLEEP THROUGH, so it is PAINLESS, with a procedure that causes the worst pain most humans will ever endure.

Birth can be painful (doesn't have to be)

I think you need an education on this subject. I'd love to hear proof of a painless birth.

Oki dokie!!!

http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/sensual/orgasmic.html

This site is absolutely wonderful, and I hope to use some of the techniques when I finally become pregnant. Yes, women do orgasm when giving birth! It is possible!

Quote :

Quote :

- But I personally feel very strongly that it is a better choice than KILLING another human being. And I do mean a human being, not a zygote. Post 8 weeks, all organs in place. A multicellular organism.

An 8 minute procedure that slaughters another human being. A student I will never see. The loss of human life is shocking to me.

So what's better... 8 minutes, and an entire lifetime that never occurs...
Or hours of labor and a human who gets to live their entire life?

That's not what we were discussing, and you know it. We were talking about your objection to abortion being based on a video.

I thought we were past that. Can't we move on? I have.

Quote :

also,

Every time a couple uses birth control a child is stopped from existing. Abortion in the first trimester does the same thing, but both of those situations are ok, right?

The difference is that the child is already created when abortion happens. There is already flesh and eyes and fingers and bones. And if left alone, chances are it will become a born baby. A sperm can't do that by itself and neither can an egg.

Erulissë wrote:

i went and looked at prolife america where erie posts (because I don't have enough to do lol) and she posted this:

"The review articles largely concluded that the most frequently reported emotions felt by women immediately following an abortion are relief and/or happiness, experienced by about 75% of women (one article evaluated only negative effects). Feelings of regret, anxiety, guilt, depression, and other negative emotions are reported by about 5 to 30% of women. These feelings are usually mild and fade rapidly, within a few weeks. Months or years after an abortion, the majority of women do not regret their decision. In fact, for many women, abortion appears to be a positive experience that improves their self-esteem, provides inner strength, and motivates them to refocus their lives in a meaningful way."

thank you EiriForLife!

I really am not crazy... I definitely don't buy in to all of the pro-life propaganda. I just feel that the two philosophies can be merged and a middle ground can be found.

I do not like the idea of killing another human being. With some information I read posted by Future, I believe that we become complete human beings at 8 weeks. When the unborn is capable of life outside the womb, I feel it has an unalienable right to that life, at around 21-22 weeks. Abortions then are rare anyway so that's irrelevant.

My main concern is actually between the weeks of 12-20... When the unborn is a fetus, a human being, but has not yet achieved the right to life by being capable of surviving on its own. That's a troublesome time for me.

"It was the ultimate climax. I felt open, loose and free. Words cannot explain the feeling as my baby's body slithered out. To this day I can still sense that wonderful feeling inside. It makes me tingle."
-From "Unconditional Faith," by Allison Scimeca in the book Unassisted Homebirth: An Act of Love , by Lynn Griesemer

From http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/sensual/orgasmic.html

This site also has amazing stories:
http://www.mama2mama.org/margaret_j.html

I love this site too!!
http://www.natural-wisdom.com/birthpleasure.htm

eiri, why won't you call the local clinic and get information from them?

Why won't you answer that question? it would be informative for you and straight from the source.

Erulissë wrote:

eiri, why won't you call the local clinic and get information from them?

Why won't you answer that question? it would be informative for you and straight from the source.

Because I have no desire to do that, and I'm incapable of doing it living with my parents as I am. I have heard from pro-choicers what these clinics provide, and I don't feel it is enough. They don't offer a video at all, and I feel they should.

The pamphlets also need to be revised because many of them provide false information, such as "abortion causes breast cancer" and other such nonsense.

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

eiri, why won't you call the local clinic and get information from them?

Why won't you answer that question? it would be informative for you and straight from the source.

Because I have no desire to do that, and I'm incapable of doing it living with my parents as I am. I have heard from pro-choicers what these clinics provide, and I don't feel it is enough. They don't offer a video at all, and I feel they should.

The pamphlets also need to be revised because many of them provide false information, such as "abortion causes breast cancer" and other such nonsense.

you have no desire to do that? to actually get the information straight from the source butyou'd rather think youtube videos are reliable sources? you can't make a phonecall from your home? just tell your parents why you are doing it it doesn't have to be a big secret.

since you won't call here's what happened to me at the private clinic i went to; I saw a video before my abortion. it went through the procedure step by step. i had counseling. with two women-one was a nurse and i am not sure what the other was. i had to sign forms and talk to them, alone, so there was no one telling me what to do or say. i had blood tests and exams. I had to go there 48 hours ahead of time and talk with someone and pick up an information packet. i alsohad to listen to a phone recording which was stupid but required by law. the pamplet i got said that "many peopleclaim abortion causes breast cancer" and then stated facts. it was actually presenting both sides of the argument on it. it even talked about postabortion trauma both medical and emotional.

it's not as one sided as you'd think or as simple.

Erulissë wrote:

EiriForLife wrote:

Erulissë wrote:

eiri, why won't you call the local clinic and get information from them?

Why won't you answer that question? it would be informative for you and straight from the source.

Because I have no desire to do that, and I'm incapable of doing it living with my parents as I am. I have heard from pro-choicers what these clinics provide, and I don't feel it is enough. They don't offer a video at all, and I feel they should.

The pamphlets also need to be revised because many of them provide false information, such as "abortion causes breast cancer" and other such nonsense.

you have no desire to do that? to actually get the information straight from the source butyou'd rather think youtube videos are reliable sources? you can't make a phonecall from your home? just tell your parents why you are doing it it doesn't have to be a big secret.

My parents would freak out if I was calling an abortion clinic. Sorry.

Quote :

since you won't call here's what happened to me at the private clinic i went to; I saw a video before my abortion. it went through the procedure step by step.

Was it a video of an actual abortion, or just graphics detailing the process? Did you see an actual woman having an actual abortion? Did you see the actual blood and the actual tools?

Quote :

i had counseling. with two women-one was a nurse and i am not sure what the other was. i had to sign forms and talk to them, alone, so there was no one telling me what to do or say. i had blood tests and exams. I had to go there 48 hours ahead of time and talk with someone and pick up an information packet. i alsohad to listen to a phone recording which was stupid but required by law.

A phone recording of what?

Quote :

the pamplet i got said that "many people claim abortion causes breast cancer" and then stated facts. it was actually presenting both sides of the argument on it. it even talked about postabortion trauma both medical and emotional.

According to Guttmacher, many states are required to put the breast cancer lie in their pamphlets.